Gallery News
An Interview with J.J. Lally

By Editorial Stuff

From left: Northern Song period (11th/12th century) porcelain ewer with `yingqing' glaze, Five Dynasties/Northern Song period (10th century) gilded silver ewer and Liao/Northern Song period (10th/11th century) white porcelain ewer Heights 22.8 cm, 21 cm, 25.4 cm `Chinese Porcelain and Silver in the Song Dynasty' J.J. Lally & Co., New York

J.J. Lally's exhibition `Chinese Porcelain and Silver in the Song Dynasty' from 18 March to 8 April features approximately 25 Song period porcelains and ten silver vessels of the same period. Orientations spoke to James Lally about the show and current market conditions.

Orientations: Is it intentional that the emphasis of your show follows the recent successful sale of Song ceramics from the Falk collection at Christie's?

James J. Lally: It is well known that I have been interested in Song ceramics for many years and I have been active in this area for a long time, so the idea for this show is not a recent development. In fact I began working on this idea five or six years ago. The Falk sale demonstrated again that many others in America and around the world are keenly interested in Song ceramics, and that was an added encouragement for me, but this kind of exhibition requires long advance planning and preparation.

O: What were your criteria in the selection of pieces, particularly for the yingqing wares which are now widely available on the market?

JJL: I have always chosen objects for an exhibition on the basis of beauty, rarity, historical importance, technical excellence and market value, and I try to keep the hierarchy of criteria in that order. Collectors are uniformly perverse: they only want what they cannot have. By that I mean simply that a category which is in strong supply is often neglected or even treated with disdain by the market. Yingqing wares are an excellent example of the phenomenon. They are plentiful and have been disregarded by most collectors. I believe this presents a great opportunity. I have carefully selected a few - less than a dozen - very fine examples. Some are rare, some are technically innovative and historically important, but all of them are beautiful. I have also tried to show the range of yingqing production at Jingdezhen and early white porcelains, to document an extraordinary leap forward in the history of ceramics, starting with the invention of porcelain in the Tang period, and continuing with all the innovative designs and techniques developed to exploit the artistic possibilities of that wonderful new material. The selection of pieces for this exhibition is not limited to one famous kiln or even to a few kilns which were favoured by the Song emperors. I have included Tang white wares, Xing yao, Ding yao and some typical Liao shapes as well as a variety of early and late yingqing, but the heart of the show is an exploration of the aesthetics of Song porcelains. The greatest ceramics of the period succeed in realizing a natural elegance in form and glaze. The later Yuan, Ming and Qing porcelains concentrate on decoration of the surface. A good potter can create beauty with either approach, but the Song wares appear deceptively simple; although the later, more elaborately decorated wares are more impressive at first glance, they are, in my opinion, more obvious. I am not blind to the appeal of the later wares, but I prefer the Song aesthetic.

O: Who are the dominant collectors in this area?

JJL: No single group of buyers is dominant in the field of Song ceramics at this time. In the late 1960s, Japanese collectors were the most important buyers and leaders of the market. I can remember heated discussions about `Japanese taste' ceramics and long conversations about what type of wares were appropriate or highly prized for tea ceremony use. During the last ten or twelve years, they have been relatively quiet, while Chinese collectors from Hong Kong, Taiwan, mainland China and elsewhere have been leading the market. However, Chinese collectors seem to focus almost exclusively on pieces from `imperial' kilns. With the Japanese presence somewhat diminished by their weak economy and the scope of Chinese competition limited by their `imperial' fixation, there are are excellent opportunities for European and American buyers to acquire beautiful and historically significant Song pieces at reasonable prices. In fact, we have seen many new buyers from this group becoming more active in this market.

O: There has been a tradition among Americans to collect Song ceramics. Is this still evident today?

JJL: Yes. American collectors of Chinese art continue to be very strong in the market for Song ceramics. There is definitely a new generation following in the footsteps of earlier collectors such as the Falks, the Bernats, and the Bulls. Americans are less fascinated by imperial connections, and that is partly why they have not kept up in the field of Ming and Qing porcelains. For them, the historical aspect is not usually a key criterion. The aesthetics of Song ceramics continue to have a strong appeal as American buyers tend to value beauty more than rarity.

O: Have prices for Song changed as dramatically as they have with Ming and Qing ceramics?

JJL: The price structure for different categories of Song wares is less clear-cut than that for Ming and Qing because of complexities of the wares and difficulties of connoisseurship. Fashion is the greatest determinant of price. For example, the desire of Chinese collectors to emulate imperial connoisseurship translates into a preference for wares that can be clearly connected to the palace, such as Ding and Jun ware. At this time, those imperial wares are the most highly priced of all Song ceramics.

O: What are your reasons for including Song silver?

JJL: Collectors need to look in other areas; rising prices and scarcity of classical wares force changes in interest and tastes. Not only do I find the shapes of Song silver beautiful but they are also informative; they clearly show that potters were inspired by early silversmiths. White porcelains or other monochrome wares can be potted to imitate the thinness of metal, and their pure, clean surfaces mimic gleaming silver. Song dynasty silver is also particularly fascinating because it represents a purely Chinese aesthetic. What we are looking at is Chinese work done in Chinese taste for Chinese clients, not luxury goods imported via the Silk Road or done by Sogdian artisans.

O: How do the prices of silver compare with the ceramics?

JJL: It really depends on the piece, but as a rule ceramics have always, except during the Song period, paradoxically been more highly valued than silver and gold. Whereas American and European silver is far more expensive than its porcelain counterparts. When these Song silver pieces were made, they were definitely regarded as luxury goods and were costlier than ceramics.

O: Do you foresee serious problems with supply of top-quality Song ceramics?

JJL: Collectors, dealers and curators in all fields constantly complain about the lack of top-quality material. The situation will continue to get more difficult, but it is not yet critical. We redefine our interests to deal with this problem. For example, the Impressionist painting market has reacted by having smaller sales and increasing the price of what is left. Top-quality Song wares are scarce probably because as heirlooms rather than burial objects, they are exposed to more hazards. However, Song potters produced wares for a variety of markets and patrons so there is still tremendous opportunity to be had. As dealers and collectors, our criterion should be the artistic success of the particular piece.

O: What are your favourite pieces in the show?

JJL: A yingqing double-gourd ewer which is so successfully executed, both in shape and in its brilliant aquamarine blue glaze - if it were Jun ware, it would set a world record price. To prove my point about not placing too much emphasis on `imperial' wares, I would urge you to consider the beauty of a complete white porcelain wine set consisting of a ewer, a basin, cups and cup stands. Each piece is perfectly shaped, with a glaze that compares favourably to Ding ware. But it was in fact made at a lesser-known kiln in northern China during the 10th or early 11th century.

O: These are quintessentially Song style. What about the early and later wares in the show?

JJL: At the beginning of the catalogue we have included a Tang white quadrilobed dish with the single character `ying' inscribed on the base. Its subtle moulding, elegant shape, and the fineness of the porcelain and glaze represent a pinnacle of achievement in ceramic history. At the other end of the time-line is an early 14th century wine ewer. Every imaginable technique developed by the late Song and early Yuan potters had been used in its creation. It has a carved phoenix on its side, a handle in the form of a scaly dragon, a spout emerging from another dragon head, relief lotus petals around the base, beadwork key fret around the neck and a free-standing lion on the cover. It was published by Margaret Medley while it was on loan to the Art Institute of Chicago as epitomizing all the techniques developed in this important period of Chinese ceramics.

O: What about the highlights among the silver?

JJL: I decided to include silver after finding two very important early pieces. One is a large silver dish engraved with a scene from Su Dongpo's Red Cliff odes, depicting the poet and other figures in a landscape setting. The second example is an early Song gilded silver ewer decorated with figural scenes in panels, complete with its cover and basin. It is of a shape and type which Song potters copied.

O: What impact has 11 September had on the Chinese art market in New York?

JJL: I think that in relation to the scale of this enormous tragedy the Chinese art market is trivial, but it was evident from the auctions that followed that the impact was not as great as one might have expected. People in our little world did not see any reason to stop collecting as a result of an act by a handful of terrorists. The main question is whether people are satisfied with the steps taken to ensure safe travel. The International Asian Art Fair will no doubt be affected by its move to the West Side and fewer dealers participating, but normal business forecasts do not apply to the art market anyway. One needs a combination of three things to be an art collector - interest, knowledge and resources, all of which appear to be in evidence in New York. The strength of the Chinese art market in New York is not a new phenomenon; we have every reason to expect that it will be long term.

O: Many `foreign' dealers have shows in New York during Asia Week. Does this encroach on New York dealers' territory?

JJL: Well, it could be considered a form of flattery. Sure, it brings more competition, but it also brings more buyers and increases the potential to develop new collectors. For the New York dealers, this does not mean that there will be a smaller scope for success. Rather, the availability of more material on view and the pressure to ensure higher quality has a positive effect.

O: Would you be interested in having an exhibition in London?

JJL: No. As you know, I don't show at art fairs. London is an important international centre of the art market in general, and there is a very strong group of Asian art dealers with a long history of successful trading in London, but I don't feel that it is necessary nor would it be cost-effective for me to stage an exhibition in London. The energy of the art market in America today is unmatched anywhere else and I am very glad to be in New York, a destination for travellers from all over the world.

O: What impact has the Sotheby's and Christie's commission-fixing scandal and the Taubman trial had on the auction houses and the field?

JJL: It is unfortunate for the whole market but it has made people aware that in their quest to increase profits, the auction houses were not operating fairly. It has been educational as the public can now look at the whole field and see that auctions are just one facet of what is available to them. The visibility resulting from the fairs and gallery shows is one of the great successes of Asia Week. It has made the dealer's world more accessible. This development benefits everyone and is not necessarily an advance for dealers at the expense of the auction houses. It has brought people who used to buy only at auction into the galleries. There is also an increasing awareness of the high commissions that go to the auction houses in a consignment or a purchase, so sellers and buyers now analyse the whole range of opportunities available. Unfortunately, after all the noise has died down, we are still stuck with very high `buyers premium' charges at all the auction houses, and that makes trading more difficult for everyone.

O: How do you feel about the potential outcome of Frederick Schultz's trial?

JJL: I do not know the facts of the Schultz case and the trial has not yet begun. Because there is an art dealer and an antiquity involved, and because the US attorney's office has chosen to make this a highly publicized case, people are expecting a major decision or policy change to result. I doubt that there will be any major impact on the art market as a result of one isolated case.